POSTED: September 1, 2005 by Foxxy
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OK
thanks kipper, i have posted the size on my post lol
smiles
janetc
run get your measuring tape we'll start looking!!
kipper
exactly why i lose my head on these posts....i know someone is going to get hurt feelings.....it would be nice if a debate can be just that a debate....i think we all need to get back to decorating, ya know i do need help with a carpet now lol, now that is something to focus on....sorry trying to lighten things and stop this post from going any further......
smiles
janetc
DBD, I repeat, I did not want to offend you. I deleted that remark so as [B]not[/B] to offend you. I was too late, unaware of the automatic e-mail facility and so was caught in an impulsive moment that I regret.
Kipper, I have no doubt but that you did not intend this outcome- who would imagine this? I did not come back to berate or embarrass you or anyone but in the hope of persuading you. If I showed too much zeal, I should not have.
I did not intend on Friday and do not now intend to return to posting on this forum. I came back, as an alias, to point out Redheron's position. Regretting the alias, I "outed" myeslf. It was not my plan to stick around this weekend and contribute to a big upset. This has been much more upsetting to me than you might guess.
I'd like to say I'm sorry. I understand Redheron's right to expect her contractees to honour their agreements. I think it would have been best if those rights were exercised within the privacy of her business.
I feel the rights of consumers were being usurped and she proudly and publicly claimed responsibilty for it.
If she had made her calls to her supplier and had them pull their product from the shelves quietly, the sofas would have disappeared. She'd have her contract honoured, and we'd be none the wiser, and ultimately no feathers would have been ruffled.
What irritated me the MOST out this, was that I was asked to feel sorry for her for doing it. I cannot, as I don't sympathize with her on this issue, nor do I consider her on the same playing field as the "poor small businessman". But, no matter how irritated, I could have been kinder in expressing it.
It was never my intent that this thread turn into a rehashing of past wrongs, or revealing of secret identities ( though admitedly, I was the first one to point a finger). Nor was it ever my intent that anyone leave the forum over this, and so far, gladly, no one has. If we lose a few more members, they will be missed, regardless of who they are or to what profession they belong, for we are all equally valued contributors, even if we don't all get along.
Some very well expressed opinions were seen in this thread. Thank you very much PaulD, dustbunnydiva and others who offered their take on the business aspect of this situation. I appreciate it, and until Redheron had a chance to explain her contractual arrangement, it helped me to see things from somewhere closer to her perspective. And thank you too, to those who posted from a consumer's point of view which reassured me I was irritated for a valid reason.
Perhaps if I had been more careful in my choice of words, or Redheron kept her business dealings within her business, we could have saved the forum from wading through 60 or so posts of muck.
again, my apologies
kipper
Apparently my message is still not getting through to you Dreamer so I'll try a little different approach.
You keep explaining your rationale for 'advocating' and yes I get what you are saying. What you aren't noticing is that you alone get into 'advocating' (in addition to some others in the past who are no longer here...and you might want to take note of why that may be significant). Go take a look at threads from the last few months and see if anyone else 'advocates' when a thread is getting touchy. Please, go count 'em. Take you cues from that. I don't care about your rationale for 'advocating', it just isn't done.
WHY you did such a thing isn't the issue at all, it's the HOW you dealt with it and WHAT you said. I don't know how to make it clearer. The only resolution I am seeking is to have you cease and desist the snarky remarks and to abide by the customs and behaviours established in these forums as you don't seem to be noticing the changes since you were last here regularly.
You are held to no higher standard than anyone else here. You are held to the very same standard and it seems to be one you don't grasp as the bar has been raised for the whole forum. I've tried to explain it to you, I won't be trying again except to try to simplify it...rude or insulting behaviour isn't acceptable and when you see two people who are sorting something treading on personal, MYOB (no matter how hard that might be).
If on the odd occassion things do get out of hand here, that restraint seems to keep things to a minimum and it works for the most part. Gone are the days of people accepting that dirty fighting type of behaviour as we (most of us who saw it in action) have seen what grief it causes and just how pleasant it can be around here without it. I'd say if you want a number, that 95% of what goes on here is about decorating and other topics that don't get into the kind of discussion that you entered into. They certainly don't incorporate snarky and cutting remarks. Compared to your good ol'days of being an advocate, that is a significant improvement so you might want to consider that the next time you are tempted to take sides or fling insults.
Meanwhile you can drop your references to the exact remark. The remark itself is not the issue and hasn't been. The issue is that you chose to snipe rather than take a respectful approach and it offended me. I told you about it, and still you sit and want people to take sides (or advocate roles no less, which was the core problem to begin with). Grow up.
Not once have you even attempted to smooth things over with an apology. It's more than apparent you do not want peace, you do not want to just live and let live. Apparently, you just want to be right. So you go ahead and be right and know that you are on notice from me that (as I mentioned in the earlier post) I will be alerting the mods when I see you doing the same again .
wasnt planning on posting on this post anymore....but i have one thing to say....WHY IS IT OKAY FOR OTHER FORUM MEMBERS TO BE ATTACKED? but as soon as someone claims red is being attacked suddenly its not okay...holy s**t, second day i joined up here someone was rude and before long i was accused of using another name.....DID ANYONE GET UP IN ARMS ABOUT THAT............NO! and that is fine, i can look after myself or other times when members were picked on and mostly by the ones who are no longer here..........WAS THERE THE STINK ABOUT THAT.....NO! and for gosh sakes i know red helps people on this board but she isnt the only one (no offense red)..........status should not make a person more valuable than others, everyone is important here, and nobody is god!.........sorry had to blow this off my chest.....it gets a little old after a while!
totally ticked
janetc
Please read these comments knowing that they are conveyed without malice and in the hope of a resolution.
First, I will tell you why I leaped into this fray. It seemed to me that Redheron was being attacked, by more than one poster. I felt bad for her and hoped to point out her position to those who were so dismayed that she had contacted her supplier.
My opinions are likely to be as worthy or unworthy as any, but I feel I am being held to a higher standard than others who have posted on this thread. I think that I should be able to state my understanding of what a thread is about, as should others be able to state their interpretation. Debates, I think, are open to here to anyone who cares to comment. And anyone should be able to advocate for another's position, or their own.
I agree with you that personal attacks are inappropriate.When I responded to your first post to me, I was certainly reacting to being called a "naive whiner". I took offense to that. I was also reacting to the shock of being singled out in that manner by you, a person who is usually a carefully diplomatic poster. Less emphatically, I felt it unfair to not acknowledge that Redheron had been personally attacked.
It seems to me unfair to allude to the remark I made without repeating it. This leaves others to conclude that it was even worse than it was. It was not nice. That is why I removed it. I realized that I did not want to offend you nor to offend others by offending you.
I do not have the benefit of a copy of my remark. I typed it, posted it and deleted within an extremely short span of time. As I recall, my remark was to the effect that "if you want to take a swipe at me you should go ahead and call me by name when you do so instead of being indirect, I made a wry reference to the fact I am an easy target as I apparently wear a bullseye on my forehead when I post on this forum, and I may have made an allusion to our mutual anonymity.
As I said, it was not a nice remark, I realized that it was beneath you and I both, and that is why I deleted it. I did not realize I had done so "too late", after the harm was done.
Should you and I remove our discussion from the forum, to avoid further upset of the others? We can perhaps continue to clear the air, peaceably, in private, if you care to private message me.
Well I see the concept I was trying to get across somehow didn't make it. First off let me demonstrate a point.
If my comment to you about whining was offensive to you (or anyone else), I apologize. My intention was aimed more at the tone of some of the thread in general and wasn't appropriate. I really should have given more consideration to how it might have been interpreted before posting. Certainly I could have chosen my words more carefully.
As for [i] "Please post my deleted comment, Dustbunny, for all to see and judge for what it said and that it was deleted."[/i], the answer is absolutely not. This is not up for a vote. It is not up to others to judge and it isn't something others need to participate in. I posted publicly rather than privately about the rudeness as I thought others should have a heads up that your behaviour has apparently not changed much since you were banned. I am not about to get into a 'see what she said to me!" to have people end up taking sides or continuing the topic any longer than it need be (I highly doubt any of these posts will be around once the mods get involved).
IMO it's not about being right or wrong. It's about respect for other peoples' opinions and feelings. It's about being polite and civilized. This is not about being vindicated for comments which everyone sees through their own eyes and experience. We are each responsible for what we say or do to anyone else. Whether we completely understand or agree, if they take offense, it is only appropriate that we acknowledge and consider their right to have their own experience without adding sidebars, snipes, or any other vehicle which serves only to discount an individual. I felt sniped plain and simple, what more do you need to know? Was it rude? Apparently even enough for you to know to delete it. Deleted or not, I'm here to tell you that the message did reach me loud and clear and was a demonstration to me of your attitude. I highly doubt my posting your remark would serve you in any positive way.
I have told you my feeling about your comment but apparently you would rather argue than acknowledge you have offended me. As has happened all too often in the past, instead of considering that someone else is entitled to their point of view you respond with how you believe them to be incorrect. To ask that others be able to 'judge' is exactly the gang up mentality I was mentioning before. It isn't necessary or appropriate and I see that you still don't see the harm in it.
Again, I do not need you to interpret what others say or do. I will ask if I need such a service. I do not believe it is appropriate for you to respond in such a way as to discount other's views or to jump between two posters who are working things out for themselves with your labelling and broad judgements. You are welcome to comment, agree, disagree, but to interpret and then advocate for other competent people in such a way steps over the line.
It doesn't matter what name you post under, it matters what and how you post. No matter what name you choose to use, no matter how often you choose to post, as long as those posts are within the bounds of respect and civility you are no doubt welcome. Unfortunately, you chose the same tact that got the forums in a roar before. I for one, don't think it should come to the kind of state it did before which caused so many, such hard feelings, that they no longer wanted to post. If you or anyone else thinks I jumped on you, you bet I did. I want this nipped in the bud so we can continue to post in the respectful manner we have now become accustomed to.
It's really too bad because in the past I did enjoy your humour and your contributions to the forum but that ability you have for causing discord unfortunately taints all the good you can offer.
[i]you might have been better served to have replied directly to the sh*t disturber who chose to forward you a post before the edits were made[/i]
The post from Dreamer to me was not forwarded by any person. It was sent by the H&H system, as it normally does, to notify me of a post in a thread to which I have subscribed (posted). As those who get the same notifications know, the message from the posts are included in those notifications, as they appeared when the 'submit' button is pressed that first time.
The forums have been been peaceful, because they are dull. Many of the witty, fun and intelligent members took the life from here when they left.
[/QUOTE]
Personally, I have found the forum since certain members have not been posting (because we all know they really haven't left) and since the new format has been changed, very satisfying. Its actually been about decorating, which is why I come here. So, to me, its not dulI, like others have mentioned, I really don't have the time to wade through adolescent back biting or some of the "witty, fun and intelligent" postings that other members might have posted. I just want to decorate. I think we're still witty, fun and intellgent, we just do that with the people in our "real" world, the people that we love, the people we trust or see every day. I know that we're all real people but we're still all strangers to each other...no matter how many words you type. This is the internet afterall, basically you are void of your senses (sight, smell, sound, taste, touch) to evaluate and judge another human being. So maybe we should all refrain from doing so. Makes you think, where did this post go wrong?? Its like sitting in your car on the freeway. Easy to give that guy behind you the finger isn't it. Would you do it if he was standing right in front of you.
"Foxxy
Forum Guru Join Date: May 2004
Location: "Chilled coffee"
Posts: 3,727
jem
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Geez I hope the nasties do not return. It had been very peaceful on the forums for months now. I do not see what that post by an old member or alias proved or helped. Well I guess it proved they are still up to their trouble making and watching and reading from the wings ready to jump in to post an opinion, but in their mean way. May I suggest they post next time with some respect for fellow members or go back to the wings and leave the forums alone. We are getting along fine here now, thank you very much. JMO and no offense intended to anyone."
What an unbelievable nerve that that this 'person' can go ahead and write this kind of crap and, as in the past, nothing is done about it. IT IS BECAUSE OF HER (AND HER FRIEND OF MANY FACES) THAT I HAVE STAYED AWAY FROM THIS FORUM. Unbeliveable s**t disturber of the very worst kind, mean-spirited and nowhere near as foxy as she thinks. I have seen through her offensive and harmful posts, and I am certain I am not alone. Why the administrators let this happen is beyond me, the original H&H moderators are gone, the new ones may not even be aware of the havoc that has been caused by the disgusting nonsense that she has created.The forums have been been peaceful, because they are dull. Many of the witty, fun and intelligent members took the life from here when they left.
Red has a right to protect her business. That's the bottom line. Get over it and stop using any crumb of dissension to create havoc while you rub your hands in glee at what you stir up.
I would normally never do this, nor do I like to waste my time doing stuff like this but I can't believe all the hype over this. I am so envious of you people who seem to have countless hours of spare time to sit and hash up these emails and comments to each other. I on the other hand live in the real world with very little spare time....maybe the odd minute or two to check out the forum to see if there is anything I fancy reading. For some reason this whole little discussion got me interested and I must say that from my point of view it is very, very silly. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and that should be the end of it. Red did what she thought was necessary from a business point of view and that is her right. As for the others you are also entitled to your opinion but when it gets personal and catty well that's just pathetic....chat forum people. You get advice, give advice or just read some posts but that is the extent of it...I really don't know what else to say.
As previously stated though I think we should be very thankful to Red and everyone else who does this professionally for their time and expertise. It means a lot to those of us who would rather just use the forum for what it is intended to be used for.....gotta go back to the real world!
All right, Dustbunnydiva, I guess that I am forced to defend myself.
It is ironic that you find it appropriate to lambaste me for discourtesy for a comment which I had the courtesy to delete. [I]Dreamer, the email I got to [/I] [I]notify me of your message (in for a penny...) had a very rude remark which I see has somehow vanished from the remaining post. [/I] Since you have the remark which I deleted, why don't you post what I said, rather than characterize it? Let others decide how just how rude or unfair my edited remark was, rather than leave them to speculate the worst. Let them judge it in light of the fact it was deleted, too.
[I]As for your misconceptions about my post Dreamer, if you check my post you'll see it wasn't directed at Red, but was in response to you and your statement . [/I] Dustbunny, I knew that your post was directed at me. I read the opening sentence to your primary discourse: [I]I think I may just pass on trying to be diplomatic, what a bunch of nieve whinning. How about getting real?[/I] My post was in answer to yours. I think that it was perfectly clear that you were writing to me, and more clear that I was replying to you as I addressed my response to you by your name. In any event, you called me a "naive whiner". I explained why I did not feel I was naive. I left the "whining" remark alone. I did find it rude, however.
I also knew that you were writing to me because I read the last sentence in your post to me: [I]It bothers me when I see comments insinuating Red or anyone else might leave because someone disagrees with their view. In my mind everyone is entitled to their views (as long as they aren't personal attacks), to disagree, and to carry on. [/I] I agree, certainly,about people being entitled to their views unless those views were personal attacks. I pointed out that someone did personally attack Redheron. I remind you that my original comment about Redheron leaving the forum was in specific response not to you but to the remarks made by Kipper, for example: [I]I suspect this has very little to do with the greater good of protecting the small businessman and more [/I] [I]to do with squelching the happiness of others. [/I] And [I]I would be very interested to know how other forum members feel about having their furniture purchases denied to them because of the actions of one of our own forum [/I] [I]members. [/I] Or:[I] I[I[/I]] do, however, take great offence to her using her contacts in the design world to snatch away a potential purchase from the "little guy" because it suits her better that way.[/I] So, again, I explained myself by paraphrasing Kipper's remarks. I was certainly not paraphrasing you and felt that was clear, though perhaps I could have said that the personal attacks were made by Kipper. However since Kipper had in one way or another retracted or softened her criticisms of Redheron, I was not then inclined to repeat them. I was glad to see that Kipper had herself arrived at a more generous attitude towards Redheron. I did not want to rehash Kipper's perhaps more impulsive remarks since she had put so much more thought into her ultimate opinion.
[I]As the thread progressed and more information came out, others have sorted it without you needing to advocate, defend, or attack anyone. [/I] I think you have been both fair and unfair in this comment. I think I may have had a hand in persuading Kipper to soften her approach by my comments made while using that much regretted alias. Perhaps it would have sorted itself without me. It is impossible to know now.
While I did not respond in detail to your entire post to me, Dustbunny, I did read your entire message. That is why I referred to my own need to find a bargain, that is why I acknowledged that I appreciated that there were choices in the market and pointed out another way of determining different quality levels. As usual, your post was informative and a reminder to me that all Natuzzi sofas and all Sony TVs are not made to the same standard. I also acknowledged that information, indirectly. I was too terse, perhaps, but did intend to let you know that I did not disagree with most of what you said.
I could say more in my own defense, but I am afraid it would be lost in a sea of words. In any case, it would seem that I am not able to post on this forum without my comments being read in the harshest light. Sadly, for me, but I knew that. Hence the alias. I was more effective as "AllCanadian" than as myself. I assure you that I have learned TWO lessons: that I feel terribly uncomfortable using an alias and won't do so again; and that I am not able to post on this forum as myself without risking offense to you and perhaps others just by being me.
[B]
Please post my deleted comment, Dustbunny, for all to see and judge for what it said and that it was deleted. [/B]
Geez I hope the nasties do not return. It had been very peaceful on the forums for months now. I do not see what that post by an old member or alias proved or helped. Well I guess it proved they are still up to their trouble making and watching and reading from the wings ready to jump in to post an opinion, but in their mean way. May I suggest they post next time with some respect for fellow members or go back to the wings and leave the forums alone. We are getting along fine here now, thank you very much. JMO and no offense intended to anyone.
P.S. I guess I will not be mentioning any more Costco Bargains LOL> :)
Quote: "I have held this post for a number of hours just to make sure I wasn't over reacting, and so far I haven't changed my mind, so I will hit submit and take my lumps if need be. My intent is not to get great discussions about this going and as a matter of fact it's probably best if it dies a natural death, but I do feel the need to express my feeling/thoughts on this matter."
Instead of hitting the submit button you might have been better served to have replied directly to the sh*t disturber who chose to forward you a post before the edits were made. We all, at times, do and say things that we regret and in real life often do not have the opportunity to correct them. On the net, we do. We can edit out words said in haste. That the post was edited is proof the writer reconsidered the words used. That someone thought it necessary to forward them to you is unconscionable.
As always - just my opinion.....
[b]Warning to others:[/b] [i]what I am about to post is directed at Dreamer and her message to me before it was edited. Although the post that appears in the thread has been cleaned up, I can only say that the original left me quite angry, something I don't think I have experienced in this forum since her banning. I am posting my response here as an indicator that apparently some things just don't change and so you are forewarned.
Perhaps we should all be aware that when we edit a post, the correction doesn't always make it to the notification post. Yet another reason to consider intent before hitting 'submit'.
For those of you who know how I normally post, you may find this a little different. That is because, plain and simple, I am PO'd and not prepared to let this one drop. I have held this post for a number of hours just to make sure I wasn't over reacting, and so far I haven't changed my mind, so I will hit submit and take my lumps if need be. My intent is not to get great discussions about this going and as a matter of fact it's probably best if it dies a natural death, but I do feel the need to express my feeling/thoughts on this matter. [/i]
Dreamer, the email I got to notify me of your message (in for a penny...) had a very rude remark which I see has somehow vanished from the remaining post. I'll give you credit for at least editing it out but it's being there in the first place is telling. Guess what? I saw it, I didn't appreciate it, and I am not about to let it pass lest you end up feeling quite comfortable in trying it again. I don't believe I have ever been rude to you or anyone else and I do not regard rudeness from you or any one else as acceptable behaviour. As a matter of fact, it's more than fair to say that you are the only one I can remember being rude to me. Everyone here has always been very civil, how is it you feel the need to distinguish yourself in such a way?
So I'll warn you now that if you continue with the tone and type of statements you used on me in that message before you edited it, well, it won't be long before you get into some major grief. I for one, have enjoyed the peace of late and I doubt you'll find many who will be happy to see the tone you used on me (in the original message) return to the forum especially when it comes across as just plain rude. It was totally unnecessary. If that happens again, I'll be only too happy to forward those messages to the mods.
As for your misconceptions about my post Dreamer, if you check my post you'll see it wasn't directed at Red, but was in response to you and your statement [i]"I also think that manufacturers who produce two levels of quality without changing the product line name are playing a cheap trick on consumers."[/i]. You may think it's a trick, none the less it's common practice and one that most people are aware of or would be wise to get informed/educated about while shopping. No stunning new theory there, debatable maybe, but it is reality, which is what I was trying to point out.
If you check further in that same post I said [i]"As long as that product isn't identical in whatever way was specified in the agreement with Red or any other retailer they are within their rights to change the quality and offer it to a different customer base".[/i] In no way did I suggest anyone should not honour their agreements or that Red should not assert her rights.
If you think I made slurs (indirect or otherwise to you or anyone else), well so be it, but I am entitled to respond and to voice my opinion without the fear of a rude response. Normally I do my best to ensure I don't offend anyone personally, I only ask for the same from others, but you haven't done me the same favour. If you had a problem with what I said, there are ways of dealing with that and getting clarification without including pissy remarks or offensive tone. I never said mfgs shouldn't abide by their agreements, I said we didn't know what the agreement was (Red has since explained). I don't think I made any personal attacks against Red or anyone else that I know of (and if I did, I am quite sure they will let me know) and in case you haven't noticed, Red has demonstrated that she is more than capable of speaking on her own behalf, as we all are. I doubt very much there is any need for you to step in, in the name of 'advocating' for anyone here.
It's sure not necessary for you (or your alias) to arrive with guns a blazing in Red's defense, telling us all what you deem to be her or anyone else's mistake (as that is certainly a judgment you don't have the right to make on behalf of any one else here and I really don't believe it was an accurate assessment any way). From my viewpoint she didn't make any mistakes, there may have been some misconceptions on all fronts, but as you might notice, as the thread progressed and more information came out, others have sorted it without you needing to advocate, defend, or attack anyone.
If anyone still has issues, I'm sure they are also quite capable of choosing how to deal with them without someone else (e.g. you) coming into it to interject interpretations of what another person said, did, or felt. We've certainly been doing quite nicely without those types of efforts the past few months and I seriously doubt they add to anyone's enjoyment of just knowing what people are thinking and presenting on their own behalf. I know I would prefer to speak for myself in such situations as I would appreciate hearing others speak for themselves. It certainly isn't appropriate for someone to come in as you did, fully aware of your own deceit, and then become insulting in the fashion you have to me. How would you characterize such behaviour? (don't answer that, it's only thrown in for you to consider on your own time)
If someone has slurred or offended Red, I am more than confident that Red can take care of it without you or I jumping into the fray. Your labeling all that had been said as ([i] "...maliciously and gratuitously depriving people of their chance for a good deal."[/i]) seems to me to only escalate and exaggerate what is/was an already touchy situation, but I don't think it has occurred to you that that just might not have been appropriate or necessary for you to make such a comment. Again, passing your judgment on what other people are saying/doing when it should be left between them.
Before you know it, we'll be back to the school ground gang ups that were going on here before. They weren't appreciated then, I'm sure they aren't appreciated or tolerated now that such tactics have basically ceased and people are used to the more civilized behaviour. Maybe you aren't aware of this, but those gang up tactics are the very reason a lot of people stopped coming here and they said exactly that as they walked away.
As far as my post goes, I have no idea why you chose to take such an obnoxious approach or where you were coming from except to assume you didn't understand what I was actually saying and for some twisted reason felt free to throw civility to the wind (I guess no big surprise given you already let some scuples slip for the day). I will tell you that I do not require you to defend Red to me, nor do I require you to explain your interpretation of what was going on in the thread to me. I certainly don't need your snide remarks.
As far as your handle goes, I will give it to you for fessing up, you might have felt (and appeared) more honourable had you been truthful from the start. It's hard to know who to trust (as you were only too happy to mention hundreds of times in the past) when people pull stunts like that, yet for some reason you did it anyway. I assume that could mean you will not be so quick to judge and condemn others you suspect of similar tactics now. If this was your attempt to come back, you might want to rethink your approach because using deceit and snarky, rude remarks doesn't make for a very endearing re-entry or do much for your credibility in my book.
Please, in future, take a breath and actually read what I have written in my posts. If you believe I am out of line or slurring someone, consider a taking a reasonable and at least polite approach when bringing it to my attention (or maybe just maybe, leave it to them), because what I just saw demonstrated isn't something I am interested in seeing ever again.
I haven't actually made any headway yet although of all things a new acquaintence mentioned his 10 yr old son is crazy about cutting lawns and since theirs is quite small he's bringing him over to do my yard. Who knew there would be a kid who loves to 'get to cut the grass' whenever he can? So that will certainly help me out until the arborist and lawn guys can get here and it was nice that it came out of an unexpected place.
Meanwhile I am meaning to speak with a realtor as soon as the weekend is over. My neighbour also thinks this neighbourhood is changing over too fast to risk any investment until knowing what is happening with buyers. I would consider myself quite lucky in the house selling dept if I could sell without showing or cleaning. My first house sold to a developer who didn't even enter the house until I turned over the key and since it was to be demolished I didn't even have to be neat about moving. Second house sold before I even got it on the market so the buyers saw it as it was, bought it, and again, no big cleaning job or hassle until I moved out. What was great was both times the realtors didn't get their full commissions because the deals were so fast and easy. Here is hoping for a similar easy experience with this one.
I am also really hoping that if work does need to be done that the realtor can recommend someone. That would sure make it less hassle for me.
I pretty much see both sides of this argument. We live in a capitalist society and businesses small or big have to protect themselves from losing customers. In this case it meant asking a manufacturer to respect the terms of a contract. I honestly don’t see anything wrong with that. On the other hand, I think a lot of us come to this forum for friendly discussions, advice, and support of fellow design savvy folks. I think lecturing is just a little annoying and no one really enjoys it, and hence the negative reactions. I do have respect for all members in this forum and I hope this to be taken as a constructive remark rather than a provocative one. Just my thoughts…
silk worm farms I would happily buy silk from them... The farms are primarily found in Asia/South Asia for a reason other than financial... from what I have seen and read about - it is a delicate process to harvest silk - lots of warmth required - not exactly an ideal industry for Canadian Winters.
There are many beautiful products that come from Asia. There are many manufacturers who produce quality product with respect for human rights in Asia.
I wish them all much prosperity.
I cast NO ASPERSIONS because their wood cannot withstand our climate. It is a simple fact. No malice is intended. In Asia, or in the right climate, I would adore asian wood products - more so if it didn't mean wiping out our own trades.
I hope that clarifies my points!
smiles
janetc
Support Canadian ???
We can never know if our purchses come from sweat shops. I am willing to bet that all decor retailers have many articles from Asia and South Africa. I say this as it has been mentioned here.
Would they be willing to give up those ? I bet all the prized silk fabrics made and packaged and shipped from sweat shops would not ever be given up for a Canadian made product by any retailer. JMO
DBD, you ask what should stop a manufacturer from offering a variety of products on the marketplace. The answer is: a contract. It is hardly naive to expect parties to honour their agreements. Idealistic may be fair comment. I intend to keep hanging on to my ideals. The Van Gogh issue seems to me to be all about a company bargaining in good faith with its retailers.
I do shop at Ikea, a lot. If my wallet would allow it, I would purchase less from them and more from local Edmontonians. I want those shop owners to patronize my own business, and would prefer to patronize theirs. I am grateful for all the choices available to me, in any event. I am glad honest retailers will help me distinguish between high quality Sony products and less superior ones. I don't think that is what is at issue in this thread though. The issue is good faith commercial negotiations.
Redheron was accused of, in effect, maliciously and gratuitously depriving people of their chance for a good deal. There were personal attacks made against her. I understand the disappointment over a lost bargain, but if Redheron is entitled to depend on certain representations and warranties I don't know why she should sit and quietly lose sales. If she made any mistake it was to be so honest on this forum about how this bargain affected her personally.
I hope so too! I know that other suppliers of this line blew a gasket when they found out what had happened. I do a great deal of business with this supplier but wouldn't hesitate to drop them if they did not maintain the ethical parameters they put forth when I opened my account.
How goes your search for a General Contractor meets Handy Andy guy? Have you thought about having a real estate agent in to evaluate what you should and shouldn't change to maximize your own cashflow/returns etc?
of the parameters of your agreement with the mfg will probably help people understand where the problem arose and why it wouldn't be a common occurrance. I hope the mfg is honourable and doesn't get you into a lot of hassle just to get them to keep their word. Here's hoping.
I agree wholeheartedly that every person is not only entitled to their views but I encourage them to express them. I will take issue, however, when people turn this into a personal attack on me and my business.
I do have an agreement with this supplier. The mfg. sold this particular sofa in the three limited colours to the US Costco - very explicitly telling them that it could NOT be sold in Canada. Costco H.O. violated this agreement. Unfortunately, not all clients are savvy enough to realize that the fabric was A) inferior in grade and quality or B) discontinued and therefore discounted to a big box store. My concern as a retailer would be for a client who purchased this sofa from our store and then see it advertised for considerably less. The appearance of this (they may not even see it in person or realize the cause for the price difference) makes me/my store look bad. I pride myself on offering both reasonable pricing and excellent service. If someone thinks they have been 'had' by us they may not convey it to us directly, but they sit with an unpleasant taste in their mouth as a result.
I sell a variety of window coverings that are made by a large mfg. very well known.. but do not have the name brand on the packaging.. same product, different name. That is the mfg,'s perogative - most certainly. As a dealer of this particular upholstery line, there are conditions that I must meet (ie: due to another exclusivity deal I am not permitted to carry certain styles on my showroom floor - can do special orders but can't show that I carry this sofa) - I do so fairly. In return, the supplier has made specific promises to us.
Like I said.. fairs fair. Competition is healthy but it must be done fairly. When other stores that carry this sofa put it on sale (happens regularly) we don't complain to the mfg. we graciously match the price - we appreciate our client's business.
I just had someone come into the studio and wanted to know why a particular chair was $495 - she saw a microfibre chair for $195 at another store. The only thing that was similar between the chairs was they both had a microfibre on them. Our's was commercial grade, made in Canada - both the frame and the chair itself and comes in an assortment of colours. Upon further discussion the chair she saw was a completely different style, came with a choice of two colours and was made in China. All she cared about was that both chairs were a microfibre and that mine was a nicer style.. could she have it for $195???
I told her to go to Costco.
I think I may just pass on trying to be diplomatic, what a bunch of nieve whinning. How about getting real?
Many manufacturers (see Natuzzi, GE, Sony, Panasonic, and any of the biggies you can think of) offer varying degrees of quality in their products to different types of stores. They don't change their names (with the exception of mfgs like cosmetics' companies which are well known to have various brand names they market to different targets), it's up to consumers to educate themselves and be aware of what they are doing (in purchasing what/where they purchase). There may be major or slight differences in fabric, knobs, construction, style or whatever, but they do it all of the time. There is nothing new here or unethical, it's the way it goes. Different product options offered in different places to different tagets. That is their right and it is incumbent on the buyer to find out what they are buying. Anyone who thinks they are getting the identical sofa at the Brick for $1,200 as one by the same mfg at a high end store for $5,000 is just plain foolish. Even a modicum of research reveals the differences in covering, construction, warranty, sytle, service that various stores offer.
On the other side of the coin is the very real fact that markup on furniture is a complete gouge for the most part. When I worked at the Bay markup on furniture was 200+25% (by the way cosmetics are the same, they are two of the highest profit areas). To understand how high that is, you have to understand that what a store like the Bay views as a 50% markup indicates that 50% of the price is the cost. So a $1 cost means $2 retail...now change that to 200+25% and even using my bad math the same $1 cost item sells for $5+. All that profit is to the retailer, not the mfg, not the worker. When a sale offers half off on those high mark up items, the retailer is still covering their costs with room to spare. Heck, I got my leather set from a very high end store, 70% off and you can bet they still made a profit. There was no way, in the real world that set was ever worth the $17,000 original price, but that was the retail, nothing unusual for that store, and equal to the prices they were selling the other sets at. They often get those prices because of the other things people want and get from that store be it prestige, a more individual style, or special services.
Now I am sure there are variables here, but there is also something to be said for a freemarket. As much as some retailers would like things to be different, they are in competition with larger stores with more buying power etc. How someone like Red could feel threatened by Costco is a little beyond me. There is a huge difference in the client, the service, the location, and apparently even the product in question. I would hazard a guess that Red would not consider carrying that particular sofa in her store as it is below the quality she would prefer to carry (the mention of the fabric being inferior to her stock for one). That's what people pay for, that's what people use when determining what they buy. Buyers who want individualized service, a nice atmosphere, a sense of confidence in the product, etc. will shop at a smaller store like Red's rather than Costco and they expect to pay more for the quality they get.
Why should a furniture mfg be prevented from offering product to another client base anymore than any other company? Why should a mfg be prevented from dealing with the world as it is, big box or not being good or bad, it's here to stay for now and the public is lapping it up. It may or may not be a mistake to some eyes, but not many people will argue that they don't know the difference between the quality of a $20 GE toaster and the quality of the $80 version. Sometimes people just don't want/need the other version and everyone is happy this way. So what's the problem?
As far as things going to 3rd world for cost cutting, well there again, that's the life of an ecomony and we are now in a new phase, a global economy that changes things. It's the way nations develop and change and N. America no longer is the resource based (natural and labour) economy it started out as. It's a natural process, it's how things have worked for centuries and centuries that economies change. It's why knowledge and technology are our new economy and any mfg has to become a specialist or move. Trying to make it stop is not going to make it stop. Not all of it is child or slave labour, it's just better business. Expectations have to be realistic. I'm all for buying Canadian, but the reality is that often it just isn't worth it. The cost is too high when a comparable item is available in my price range. Canadians for the most part are not willing to pay more and they are not willing to make less (income), and so something has to give and it has.
Meanwhile, in this particular case I think probably only Red knows what agreement she has with the manufacturer, but in my experience those agreements are often pretty specific when it comes to what is included in that 'exclusivity'. For instance, there are certain well known products that are exclusive in some stores, but only in a particular colour, configuration (for instance, with included accessories especially when talking things like cameras, vacuums, etc. and another might be the give aways/bonuses you see 'only available at the Bay"....same product in all stores but exclusive offer for one chain varies from that offered in another when buying that same product), or some other factor. Rarely does it mean the mfg's item isn't carried by another retailer. The only example I can think of a true exclusive is in something like Kenmore. We all know they are made by another major manufacturer, specially for Sears, not available anywhere else due to the fact that before putting the Kenmore name on the item, some minor change has been made. The same is true of other products whether they change the name or not. Natuzzi is one blazing example I can think of that isn't even close to the same in different stores (even though they basically look alike) but they sell by their name and no one seems to worry about it.
My suspicion is that the mfg probably has every right to sell a different version of a particular style to another company wihout worrying too much about it. As long as that product isn't identical in whatever way was specified in the agreement with Red or any other retailer they are within their rights to change the quality and offer it to a different customer base. I guess we'll have to see, but I'm betting that whoever the mfg is will be taking a close look at that agreement before pulling from Costco. Call it David & Golliath if you will, but the amount of stock Costco can move has to be fantastic for a smaller mfg. I can't imagine how it negatively impacts Cdn workers one bit since probably the only difference in profit is at the retail end. Meanwhile, if they sell a lot, more orders to the mfg, and more work to those workers who somehow in this thread got threatened. I don't see how that would be anything but good for the workers here.
Meanwhile, I think those who wanted to buy that sofa should go and do it as long as it's there (whether it's pulled or not, you know how fast Costco goes through items so waiting is never a good thing). When it comes to posting about deals, I think this case is probably an aberration and shouldn't be taken as an indicator of future problems. Red may well be within her rights to protect her agreement. I think it was fair warning that the fabric may be inferior so anyone buying would be aware (just as they have been made aware of cracking problems with some wooden items that have been brought up).
I don't think posters should feel they can't comment, whatever opinion they have. It bothers me when I see comments insinuating Red or anyone else might leave because someone disagrees with their view. In my mind everyone is entitled to their views (as long as they aren't personal attacks), to disagree, and to carry on.
I love a good bargain but it must be done fairly - win win situation.
This was clearly not.
this post started off with sharing a good deal on a sofa and i feel if we the members see a good deal and want to post it, we should be able to...we dont know what you sell in your store and im sorry red but i refuse to be involved any further in this discussion as i see it heading no where at this point
smiles
janetc
How is it possible that I can be thanked and vilified in the same post? I happily give of my professional advice -it's freely offeredwith the best of intentions but then to be vilified for wanting to protect my rights as a business person... how is that fair?
france well said...i dont believe the intentions of this post was to run anyone out of business....
dreamer, i dont believe you are responsible for causing harm to reds reputation...we are all adults here and what we say or do we must be responsible for
free....im sorry, you feel a need to leave...stay on, i once was accused of using a different alias...i stayed around to prove im janet and that is all there is to it....lol
smiles
janetc