So we have now walked away from two different houses based on home inspection reports. We have now begun questioning ourselves whether we are asking for too much based on what we are willing to pay. Both homes fell into our price range. We are feeling fortunate that we are buying during a time when home inpsections are a part of the process, but when is picky too picky?The first house was the perfect location, the second house was the 'perfect' price. I guess we are feeling frustrated and have begun to hate the house hunting process. We are also feeling frustrated because it seems people can't be honest about the problems their home has. We would have likely overlooked the issues of the first house had we felt the homeowners were honest with us. Are we being too picky?
Comment Guidelines
We welcome your feedback on Houseandhome.com. H&H reserves the right to remove any unsuitable personal remarks made about the bloggers, hosts, homeowners and/or guests we feature. Please keep your comments focused on decorating, design, cooking and other lifestyle topics. Adopt a tone you would be willing to use in person and do not make slanderous remarks or use denigrating language. If you see a comment that you believe violates any of the guidelines outlined above, please click “Alert a Moderator.” Thank you.
Personally, if I ever bought a house, I'd want one with an UNFINISHED basement so I could see:
0) Whether there's any black mold on the subfloor under the bathtub or toilet indicating water leakage.
a) the condition of the foundation and basement floor. Hairline cracks in the basement floor is almost normal because there's no rebar in the floor, but the foundation shouldn't be cracked. If it is, the best way to fix it is from the outside.
b) the kind of floor joists used, and I'd want fir 2X12's on 16 inch centres (no spruce floor joists, it's a weaker wood) I'd want to make sure the owner didn't put any deep notches into any of those joists. Also, holes to run wires or notches for piping should be toward the ends of the joists, not the middles.
c) the kind of subfloor (and if possible, the kind of underlayment) used, I'd want fir 1X6's at a 45 degree angle to the joists or T&G fir plywood subfloor (no spruce plywood) and I'd want to see fir plywood underlayment (definitely no particle board). That's cuz if particle board gets wet, it swells up and looses all it's strength and needs to be replaced.
d) whether the plumbing is copper and whether they ran 3/4 inch copper pipe upstairs or 1/2 inch copper pipe. The benefit of running 3/4 copper pipe upstairs and then branching off to each plumbing fixture with 3/4 X 3/4 X 1/2 inch tees is that a 3/4 inch pipe can supply full flow to 2 half inch pipes simultaneously, so the poor sap in the shower doesn't get scalded if someone flushes the toilet upstairs. I'd want 3/4 copper hot and cold piping throughout the house with 3/4 X 3/4 X 1/2 inch tees to each plumbing fixture.
While in the basement, I'd also look at:
e) if the house has a brick chimney, at the very bottom of the chimney is a "clean out". Flue gas from the boiler, furnace or hot water heater enters the chimney a few feet above the bottom of the chimney. The extension of the chimney below the point at which the flue gas enters is there so that if anything falls into the chimney, it'll fall to the bottom and won't block the chimney creating a dangerous situation. There should be a metal cover on the wall to remove anything that falls into the cleanout. I'd remove that metal cover and remove any leaves, twigs and dead birds, and then see how much sand there is. The only place sand would come from is the brick mortar in the chimney. The more sand, the more the mortar between the bricks is deteriorated, and the more the chimney is in need of rebuilding.
f) if the house has a shingle roof, I'd be looking for any shingles that are starting to curl. When the Sun bakes shingles, the first thing to happen is that they lose their granules (which collect in the eves troughs). Once the granules are gone, then the Sun deteriorates the asphalt in the shingles so that they can absorb water. Once the shingles start to get wet, they curl. (This is the same reason why "linoleum tiles" which are the old 9 inch square tiles will start to curl at the corners when they get old and start to absorb moisture.) On a roof, you want to see all the shingles laying flat. Also, check both sides of the roof and if you see that one side looks better than the other, it's often because the roofer had a helper and the helper did the side that don't look so great. Have that side checked by a roofer to see that it's done OK.
g) check any light fixtures that have the bulb enclosed for burnt insulation on the wiring. Light fixtures that enclose the bulb in a glass cover will contain the heat from the light bulb, and often the insulation on the wiring in the electrical box will be baked to a crisp. You can't even replace the light fixture without running the risk of the insulation breaking off the wiring and you're having to rewire the electrical box. Generally, light fixtures that aren't left on as long (like bedroom ceiling light fixtures as opposed to kitchen ceiling light fixtures) will have wiring in better shape, as will light fixtures that allow air circulation around the bulb.
h) if it's winter when you're inspecting the house, get up into the attic and look for condensation or frost on any of the roof rafters or anywhere on the underside of the roof. Condensation, or mildew or frost anywhere on the underside of the roof means that moisture is collecting in the roof, and that means the roof isn't well ventilated. Moisture inside the house will always rise up through the walls and through ceiling light fixtures into the attic. Once there, the attic should have enough ventilation to carry that moisture away. What actually happens is that cold dry air from outdoors will enter through the soffits or a gable vent and warm up because of heat loss through the house's insulated ceiling. As that dry outdoor air warms up, it's relative humidity goes way down, and it absorbs moisture from it's surroundings, including any condensation or frost on the coldest part of the attic (the underside of the roof and/or the roof rafters). The warmed and moister air then rises and escapes the roof through a ridge vent, roof vent or the wind pushes out out a gable vent or soffit on the opposite side of the house. In that way, "attic ventilation" keeps the wood in the attic dry, and dry wood is happy wood even if it's very cold.
(Where I live, a poorly ventilated attic can accumulate 2 inches of frost on it's underside over a winter. Come spring, that frost starts to melt and it drips off the rafters and underside of the roof onto the ceiling insulation. Insulation works by keeping air stagnant, so wet insulation takes forever to dry out, and those conditions are conducive to the ceiling joists starting to rot. An to make matters worse, a well built house will have a plastic vapour barrier between the insulation and the plaster or drywall ceiling, and that plastic vapour barrier prevents the ceiling from getting wet, hiding the true extent of the damage.)
i) While up in the attic, check the ducting from the bathroom and kitchen ceiling fans for leaks to ensure that warm moist air isn't being blown into the attic. If the dryer ducting goes through the attic, check it for leaks too. If you see condensation or frost above the kitchen or ceiling fans, it could just be a matter of fixing a leaking vent or covering the fan installation with plastic to prevent air leakage through the fan into the attic. In the southern US, it's common for people to vent their ceiling fans and dryers into their craws space or attics rather than directly outside.
That's all I can think of right now. But, that's only because I've run out of my own ideas. If someone mentions something, I'm sure there'll be something else come up.
Most real estate agents know precious little more about houses than the people they're supposedly working for.
No, I wasn't kidding actually. You should have seen the last agent I dealt with telling me what I should and shouldn't be looking at in each house. He actually got on my nerves a bit since he didnt' seem to get that I have tools and know how to use them. he was actually totally into the detail and pointing out what was wrong with various places. There are some who are into honestly looking/showing the good and bad parts of homes to their clients (although you can be sure the listing agents won't have that same approach).
Besides, particularly when buying, when an agent isn't working with you well, they are off the job, no contract to hold you to working with them so it's in their best interest to not piss you off by showing you places they actually know have too many problems to meet your requirements. Those who can do that are the ones who stay in business as far as I can see. The rest are on to other things pretty quickly.
I guess what I have noticed using and interviewing various Realtors is there is a line between those who are working for their clients and those who are out to sell no matter what. It's those no matter what types who are the problem.
R U kidding?
Most real estate agents know precious little more about houses than the people they're supposedly working for. Maybe Remax or Century 21 sends them on a course, but that course doesn't teach them anything about the problems likely to be found in houses, it teaches them how to emphasize the selling points of the house, evaluate the market value of a house and where to spend money on a house to increase it's selling price. I would never trust a real estate agent to identify potential problems with a house cuz it's like asking a janitor to trouble shoot a computer system.
Every six months or so I get send a letter or phone call from a commercial real estate brokerage telling me they have buyers interested in buying apartment blocks in my area, and would I be interested in having one of their representatives show my property to potential buyers. I got such a phone call last summer and I wanted to know how much my building was worth to see if I should appeal my property tax assessment. The guy that came down was supposedly a recent graduate from Law at the U of Manitoba, and he told me that his company's commission on the sale of any property was 6 percent of which he was paid 2/3. And that guy, who was supposed to be acting as MY agent was so anxious for me to sell my property that he acted like a kid in a toy store. He kept telling me that the market was "at a peak" now (as though he could predict the economic downturn that ensued) and that my proper course of action was to ask for an offer and then start negotiating the price, and that I was in a good position because any buyer would want to retain me as a caretaker because I knew how to maintain the building.
And, that really kinds turned me off. The "agent" was more anxious that either the buyer or the seller to see the building change hands. He didn't have either my interests or the purchaser's interests in mind. He was only out for his own interest to see the building change hands so that he could collect his share of the commission.
And, truth be known, most real estate agents can't afford a second pair of shoes, and that's why the guy I ended up with was so anxious to see me sell my building. He didn't care what it sold for or what condition it was in, he just wanted it sold so he could collect his commission on that sale.
Mortgage foreclosures are more commonly referred to as Power of Sales in Ontario. Your agent should be able to scout those out for you but you have to be prepared to act quickly and the prices are non negotiable in many cases. I asked about those and was told that usually the agents themselves snapped them up before they got a chance to get out on the MLS. It's been my understanding that there haven't been too many of those so far around here because our banks are stricter about who they give mortgages to. I suppose if the area your moving to has been hit with many layoffs then it might be a different story perhaps.
I would not trust a real estate agent to tell you what property is worth seeing or not based on the amount of work needed because their expertise is not to see a homes deficiencies but to see a home in its positive light so they can sell the darn thing. It is very discouraging to not even be able to depend upon the inspectors opinion 100% but it's better than nothing if you are unable to see the flaws yourself.
You might be wise to rent a place for a year at least in the new city to get your bearings and figure out an area you'd like to settle in.
Certainly tough circumstances. Sounds like you have a lot going on. We've relocated several times for my job and the last move was certainly stressful. We searched several weekends without finding the house wanted, had an offer rejected for a house we did find and loved and in the end feel like we "settled" on the house we finally bought.
We've been living in our new house now for about 9 months and have a few regrets. we constantly look at homes now listed and compare our house to them. We're likely going to spend a bunch of money this year to now fix some of the things that bug us about this house (including some things we wish had been highlighted in a home inspection).
My advice, take your time to find the house that is right for you and doesn't have defects you'll be worried about in the future. Good luck!
Ooof, those would be things to walk away from IMO. You do have a lot on your plate. Not sure what you can do to cut yourself any slack when things all hit at once like that.
Do you have a good Realtor looking for you who can give you opinions on whether a house isn't worth seeing do to amount of work etc.? That might help you avoid even wasting time on ones that have a lot of work required or haven't been well maintained.
As for season, I know here it's only just starting so where you are looking there may be some getting ready to hit the market late March or April since that is how people seem to like timing so they can move when school is out,
what part of the paper do you look for house foreclosures?
it happens to be my job that we are moving back for. the other stress is that my husband hasn't found a job yet...although we still have a decent amount of time (except the university stuff) for everything to roll out; it would be just nice not to have to think about any of it.
patience isn't my strongest virtue!
Well, it's clear to me that there's a confluence of things happening in your life right now, and they're not all going as planned.
Why don't you just do it this way:
If you need to move cuz of hubby's job, get hubby to move to the new city and find an apartment that rents on a month-to-month basis, and you stay where you are now with the kids until you finish your university and work projects.
Then, when some of the myriad of things you're doing now get behind you, turn your attention to looking for another house.
Now is not a good time to be looking for a house because the housing market is depressed now and no one want's to sell their house for half of what they could have gotten for it two years ago.
You're probably better off looking in your newspaper for mortgage foreclosures than the regular real estate market. No one's going to start investing a lot of time, money and effort renovating a home that they don't own (cuz they could lose all that investment if they lose their job before they pay off the mortgage.)That way you stay away from "owner renovated" homes cuz most of the time, in my experience anyhow, the owner didn't know much about what he was doing when he renovated his home. It might LOOK nice, but what you're wanting is the work to be well done, and you can't tell if it is or not by how it looks.
You're just trying to juggle too many balls at once right now.
Nestor, I completely agree that I am anxious. I went into this process thinking that since the market is slow there would be lots to choose from - NOT!
Anxious because we are relocating from one city to another and really want to move without a move in between mostly because I don't want my kids to have to change schools.
Anxious because I am in my last semester of university and the semester is falling to pieces quicker than I can blink. I am in a ton of group work projects and am feeling I have no control over my own destiny.
To top it off, we have had no movement on our house.(see another post for pictures)
So not feeling like I have control over anything is making me crazier than I normally am.
Feeling foolish that we didn't see what the home inspection found and not even putting in offers.
Essentially, all confidence in what seems like every aspect of my life seems to disappearing!
thanks everyone for listening, advice and helping me thru this nutty time!
NancyJ, I would have walked away as well from what you listed.
My inspection on this house didn't disclose a number of things such as roof (I had to replace ...I was pissed...would have reduced my asking by 8K) He should have seen this in the Spring (I couldn't attend inspection as I was out of country!...I only saw it snow covered. There were others but not as pricey such as minor plumbing, exhausst fans that should have been recorded. Wasn't happy with the inspection...went to my lawyer and said it would cost too much to fight his lack of disclosure.
So if possible be there for the inspection...ask questions...be observant
I went through this last year. It is very frustrating to keep looking at houses that are potential money pits. There was one I remember that had the most amazing maple hardwood floors and stairs but all the walls, both inside and out needed to be replaced on the second floor due to water damage. It would have required approx. $20-30,000 to fix and there would never be a return on that money IMO. That house was on the market for ages and I don't think it ever did sell. It was built in the 70's and the workmanship and materials were not good.
I think you need to know approx. costs for repairs and the liklihood of how fast you could get a return on that cost. That way you can better determine the diamonds in the rough.
I think part of the problem is that sellers are not accepting the fact that real estate prices are going down and want the same amount or more as they could have got a few years ago when the market was hotter.
If you put in what you consider a fair offer and the seller doesn't take it then it's their problem and they might wish they had taken it a few weeks in the future. You have to try to stay detached and not getting too emotional over a house purchase, just assess it based on how it fits your needs. If an offer is rejected keep it on the back burner and maybe revisit it if it's still up for sale. The sellers agents are on their backs to sell if there is the slightest interest so you have that working in your favour.
I'm not sure where you are located but houses are just going on the market where I am, there isn't the full assortment available yet so don't give up hope just yet.
Wow! Great info Nester.
We just purchased last year and it was a really stressful time as well. We had a home inspection on one that did not go very well and it does get frustrating. You get your mind set on the house and then..... I couldn't imagine having those 2 in 2 weeks...... As you have quite a bit of experience buying I bet you will know when it is the right house for you and when you feel comfortable with what the inspector says. I hope it doesn't take too many more for you to find the right one!
Nancy:
I think you're just too anxious to buy.
I'd be very reluctant to buy a house that looks "renovated" by the home owner cuz most homeowners don't have much of a clue what they're doing when it comes to doing renovations. And, truth be known, it's the homeowner that has the correct motivation, but lacks the knowledge and skill to do the job really well. The contractor has the knowledge and skill, but lacks the motivation because he knows the homeowner is going to judge the work entirely on how it looks. How well something is done isn't always reflected in how it looks. Even a pig will look attractive with enough make-up.
I wouldn't have bought a house with rotting windows, leaking bathrooms and water issues in the basement. the rotting windows mean that they weren't properly maintained, and that suggests the rest of the house wasn't either, and it calls for replacing the windows cuz the cost and labour in replacing rotted wood generally makes replacing the windows a more economical alternative.
Those leaking bathrooms may be due to the homeowner setting tile on drywall, and the drywall starting to get wet and fall apart. That's gonna mean redoing the tiling in the bathroom, and possibly having to deal with a rotted subfloor under the bathtub.
The water issues in the basement suggest to me that the foundation wasn't water proofed, only damp proofed. That's where they use a paint roller to paint an asphaltic paint over the exterior of the basement foundation rather than apply a much thicker and stronger asphaltic membrane which will work better and last longer. It could also be that the foundation is cracked.
The other thing is that if you read the fine print on a house inspector's contract, there'll be something in there that says "If I couldn't have seen it, I couldn't have inspected it." So, if he didn't dig up around the house's foundation or tear apart the basement exterior walls, he couldn't have seen any foundation cracks, and therefore can't be held responsible for not mentioning them on the home inspection report.
Personally, I'd look for houses built after 1950 but before the early 1970's. That's because anything built after 1950 will have copper plumbing, and fiberglass insulation. Once you get into the 1970's, when the baby boomer's were all wanting to buy houses, building codes were loosened and houses were built with aluminum wiring, with 2X10 spruce joists on 16 inch centres instead of 2X12 fir joists on 12 or 16 inch centres, with particle board underlayment instead of fir plywood underlayment, etc. And, I'd look for one that hadn't been "renovated" by the owner who very well might not have been very high up the learning curve when he did the work.
So what sorts of things have been causing you to walk? If you gave us some idea we might be able to tell you if you are worrying too much or are being smart to keep looking.
The first house had rotten windows, each bathroom leaked, an outter door leaked that made the floor swell, windows that would not close. ice damming on the roof this house was approximately 12 years old.
The second house was a no qestion leave it behind. there were multiple rooms that had signs of mold, an original furnace, original water heater (both of which we were ok with b/c we would use the tax credit to replace them immediately), there was also a # of signs of water in the basement. This house was approximately 60 years old.
These issues with both houses are the highlights - there were other things that were also wrong as well.
We feel we have a VERY good home inspector. He told us he wouldn't touch the second house at all. The first house he felt it was workable - the owners didn't budge on the offered price after we told them we wanted money off in order to fix all the repairs.
We are also not new to the house buying thing either - we will be buying our 6th home. This is just the first time we have walked away from two houses within a two week period, it just seems unsettling.
The other thing I think you need to accept is that sellers are always going to present their properties in the best possible light, even if it means not mentioning its flaws or wilfully lying about them. There are some things that the seller and their agent is required by law to disclose and they should. But don't expect them to be totally "honest" with you -- they're not looking to be your friend, but to get the best possible price for their house. Don't take it personally and don't let the sellers' lack of honesty turn you off -- unless you think they're covering up something big. If you do, you will likely be disappointed. Your inspector is there to expose the things that they might not have voluntarily told you, and an experienced real estate agent should also be able to warn you about things that you might otherwise overlook.
If you are looking for a house with no problems, you are being unrealistic. Even new houses have things an inspector will spot that needs fixing. the trick is deciding what is and isn't acceptable to you. The other trick is having an inspector who will give you the type of report that outlines how serious the problem is (needs to be fixed now for safety reasons) compared to those which are simply maintenance or are part of the life of the house (and when they are likely to need attention... eg. they will often tell you how long until the house needs a new roof). It's those 'fix it now' things that are a problem usually, the rest are just what goes along with having a house. There will always be something to do.
The other thing to look at is what the inspection estimates the cost to be. If it's a particularly large amount (like furnace needs replacing now, $$$$) you can always see if you can negotiate the cost out of the price or have the item fixed before you take possession at the sellers' expense.
Also know that what is and isn't acceptable often depends on price. A lower priced home is more likely to have more problems but if they aren't major it can be worth getting one you like and accepting you will need to either get yourself a tool box and some help while you learn to fix things or arrange for some extra money in the mortgage to get things fixed professionally.
So what sorts of things have been causing you to walk? If you gave us some idea we might be able to tell you if you are worrying too much or are being smart to keep looking.
nancyj, I think the answer to whether you are too picky or not is tied up with what was wrong with the house, per the building inspectors. If it was something small, common and/or easily fixed, maybe you are. If you were told the house was about to slide down the hill into the river in the next 5 years, that is NOT being too picky!
I have bought 2 houses and not had a home inspection either time - we're actually still in house #1, won't move into house #2 until the beginning of May. Both were older houses, but we could tell that they are solid and we feel that if they have stood up for the best part of 100 years, they ain't going anywhere now!
Buying a home is a HUGE purchase. I think that you will be happiest if you wait and find the perfect house.
That being said I don't know how long you have been looking, if you have been looking for the last 3 years maybe you are being too picky...:)
Also, once you move into a home whichever you choose and you furnish and decorate it the way you like it will become the perfect home.
As long as you like the location and the floor plan, almost everything else can be changed in time.
As far as inspections go I believe that they are worthwhile. I always find it overwhelming when the inspector lists the things that are wrong with the home but I always ask how this home falls in place with others similar in age and value. Most of the time most houses will have several things that could be fixed or updated. It is the inspectors job to find these things regardless of the size of the problem.
Hope this helps.